Rob Jones and Ken Harman in Conversation

Artist Rob Jones and curator Ken Harman sit down to discuss CODA, their new collaborative venture. Join us in conversation as the two discuss art, pop culture, and the future of the alternative movie poster scene.

This interview was hosted by Michael Faith of the Art Affairs Podcast in June 2024.

MF: So yeah. So all those in-flight projects, they weren't just dead in the water. They allowed you to kind of take those with you if you wanted them.

RJ: Yeah. Down to licenses. I'd just gotten projects approved for Dune. I got projects approved for ODB (Ol' Dirty Bastard). And the reviewers were like, "These are great. Let's go to the next level." And then the next level was to finally sign the contract. Here's a little tip. My old boss Cam devised, which I was quite impressed with. He wanted to submit work but not sign the contract until we had our first project approved as far as visuals and what have you. And as soon as that was done, we would sign the contract, pay the money, and then off the races. So you get the maximum amount of contract term. And so that kind of made it really easy to transfer everything over to my next because we hadn't yet signed, but we already had all the work done.

MF: And so do you think that the reason why they didn't cling so tight to those in-flight projects because they were just getting out of the space entirely and they just didn't care?

RJ: From what I understand, VMP is kind of going back to... it's a smaller version of what it was, like early days kind of a version of VMP. And the whole entrance into soundtracks is no longer, obviously, a mission, since because those that brought me on board are no longer there as well, so...

MF: Okay. Okay. So following that experience and your second time getting laid off in so many years, which is tragic as a one-time thing, but to have it happen twice. But after that, how did that ultimately, I guess, connect you with Ken and have you guys joined forces?

RJ: We were already working with Ken. We were going like, "Hey, we got this amazing Blue Velvet soundtrack. We got this beautiful packaging by Greg Ruth. Would you be interested in helping put up some screenings and we can really celebrate this movie and put together a really great package for a bundle ticket for folks?" And he's like, "Yeah, of course. Of course, this is beautiful." I said, "Also, we got--" and I showed some other projects we were working on. And the folks I was working with at VMP were all ecstatic to be able to work with Ken, especially Jason Jones, my old Mondo boss. He was over at VMP as well. And then when everything went bizarrely kablooie, it was kind of easy to go, "Hey, Ken, instead of those screenings, what would you think about actually publishing the whole shebang, [laughter] everything?" He's like, "I love it. I've been waiting for it. Great."

MF: So, thus, CODA was born. Is that basically how it went down?

RJ: I don't want to take the floor, but, yeah, CODA was already apparently quite nascent already. Ken was already kind of pursuing it as a venture. And he's like, "You're not going to believe this, but I've already been kind of working on something that this would roll in perfectly with."

MF: So tell me about that, Ken. That was already kind of a thing that you had started cooking up even before this relationship with VMP and what you guys were doing with Blue Velvet?

KH: Yeah, as you know, Michael, I'm a bit of a serial entrepreneur and if I don't sort of do something new every couple of years, I go a little crazy. The name had come to me, "coda", which just for anyone who's listening who doesn't know, it's oftentimes used in music as the final score to a piece, it can be the final act in a play. It stems from the Italian word for tail, it often means the ending of something. And I just thought it was a great name. After having done this art thing for over a decade, I've learned a lot, I've seen a lot, and I've developed a lot of experience. I wanted to sort of take all of these things that I've learned and to create something new. I wasn't quite sure what that was, but I knew that I wanted to do something and so I had a logo made, and I had this website made and I was just sort of toying with ideas for about a year. I'd make a website and I'd play around with it and be like, "Oh, that's not quite what I want to do." And I'd sort of start from scratch. Rob and I had been speaking about VMP stuff for months and months. And when all of this went down, it was like, "Well, shit. You have all these great projects. I've got all of this infrastructure. And here's this blank slate that we could actually use to make this happen," and, yeah - there you go.

RJ: It sounded like an amazing name to me because I was like, "Wow, I'm about to enter my own professional coda." [laughter] So if there was anything I was going to react well to is that name. Plus also the Led Zeppelin connection too, it's the last Led Zeppelin album appropriately. Also, it's amazing because for me as a poster maker, that's obviously what you use for registration marks. And it's also the Zodiac Watch logo. I think another guy used it too, but I don't know.

MF: I didn't even connect that with a registration mark symbol. I just knew it from its music origins. But I did think the name was perfect just in its theme and just where you guys are in your career. It seemed like, "Hey, this is a culmination of all of the experiences that y'all have had." And so had y'all worked together before these projects on VMP? How did y'all originally connect?

RJ: I don't think I ever spoke with Ken until I got fired.

MF: Oh, okay.

KH: Yeah. I've always admired Rob and his work, but we've just never had the opportunity to work together. And I forget how it happened, Rob. Did you just sort of message me randomly one day, or what was the--?

RJ: Probably. I think Jenni and I got fired. I was like, "Hey, man. What do you think about doing this as a thing?" And he was like, "I think we should meet first before I join you on the battlefield." I was like, "You got it." And then I flew to New York, and we had a beer.

MF: Very cool. All very serendipitous. So I guess you mentioned earlier you're kind of a serial entrepreneur, Ken. So how do you imagine you're going to balance this with all the other things that you have going with Hashimoto and Recess and Harman Projects? How do you have space and energy in your calendar to start an entirely new thing?

KH: I'm not quite sure yet, but we will figure it out. And the nice thing about how we're structutred -- because this is just Rob, Jenni, and myself. So our payroll is lean and our operations are too-- we've got some really great projects, but we're not overburdening ourselves with too much at once. And I think we're going to grow this organically. And as we grow and evolve, it will become bigger and bigger and we'll take on more and more. But I think for now, we're operating at a really good clip. And I like that that gives us a lot of flexibility to really focus on the key projects that we want to focus on versus having to put out hundreds of things all at once. So I think that we're off to a really good start. And yeah, I'm really excited.

MF: And so speaking of projects that excite you, I guess, Rob, do you see this kind of as being a spiritual successor to what you were doing back in the Mondo days? I mean, with VMP, it was sort of an adjacent space. There was definitely overlap with it being more soundtrack-oriented. And Mondo did vinyl, and then you were doing vinyl with VMP. But it didn't feel like it fit in exactly the same space. Whereas CODA, it feels like at least somewhat, it harkens back to what you were doing with Mondo. Do you see it relating in the same way?

RJ: Well, honestly, VMP, it was going to be that same kind of space. We were going to make screen prints. We're going to make vinyl toys. Everything that we did with Mondo was going to kind of transfer over. And we're hoping to basically do a version of that here at CODA. But as Ken said, more manageable and more stuff we really, really care about. I know I can yammer about Dune for my entire life, but that's probably the first thing we're going to be going after. We got the license over VMP, and I'm not kidding, I'm excited to make Dune sofubi.... It's like one of the first things that we're going to probably go after actually with help from our old Mondo cohorts, Mikey Bonnano. I was like, "Dude, I want to make sandworm soft vinyl." He's like, "I'm on it. I know exactly who we can hire."

MF: Very cool.

KH: Yeah. I think that the important thing here for both of us is we've both been doing this for a pretty long time, and we're both very in tune and familiar with the scene and what's happening. And there are so many great players out there, there's so many great companies out there, there are so many great people out there. So many of our friends are in this space. And while we occupy the space, we also want to do something a little bit different and we want to do something that in many ways, other folks aren't doing, but are certainly adjacent to what we all collectively love. So while we certainly will be doing things like records and posters, as Rob says, sofubi is something that's really of interest to us. There's also a lot of, and I won't get into too much, but there's other collectibles ideas that we have that no one has touched, nobody has pursued. And then beyond that, we have my brick-and-mortar spaces at our disposal. I've got a gallery space in New York City. I have other spaces in other cities. So really pursuing more proper gallery exhibitions is important to us as well. A lot of folks do gallery shows, but we're coming at it from a very different context and a very different background and I think that that will make a difference. I think that this will show in our programming and how we treat our exhibitions, in addition to things like our screenings and even art fairs going beyond Comic-Con. So I think that there's a lot that's going to differentiate CODA from what a lot of the other folks out there are doing. But I think that what we do will work well alongside our friends as well.

MF: Okay. And then specifically with what you do, Ken, this seems to share similar waters with Spoke, which is more pop culture-oriented. I guess, how do you see it distinguishing itself from Spoke? And just from your own Harman Hashimoto branding, how do you plan to have those not cannibalize on each other's?

KH: Yeah, that's a good question. I think that the two companies are very different. For starters, CODA has a focus on officially licensed properties and themes, whereas at Spoke we give our artists a lot of creative control, so I think that that's really the main difference. And I don't really imagine there will be too much overlap. Some artists will obviously operate in both galleries, but a lot of artists won't and a lot of the things that we do at one certainly won't carry over to the other. But we've also learned a lot at Spoke and I think that we could take all of the great things that we have learned and translate them over.

MF: Okay. And with what you do with the fine art community with Harman Projects and Hashimoto Contemporary, I guess, what kind of synergy do you see between CODA and the fine art side of your enterprise?

KH: That's a great question. And that's really one of my priorities here because for me, something that's always frustrated me, the past decade-plus that I've been doing this, is how the pop culture scene that we all live in and operate in doesn't really get the sort of institutional recognition that I feel it deserves. And I think that if you can walk into the New York Met and find a Saul Bass poster, why can't you find an Olly Moss poster? Or if you can walk into MoMA and find a Drew Struzan poster, why can't you find a Tyler Stout poster? And I think that those are conversations that not enough people are having and that's a conversation that I would love to have. Having the fine art background that I come from really motivates me to take this art and this scene and try to bring it to new audiences and try to find ways to elevate it as best as I can. Because I think that our artists deserve it. I think that our artists should be in museums, and I think that they should be part of the art historical canon. And proper gallery exhibitions, art fairs, things like that, I think, is a good way to get that started.

MF: So what is-- go ahead.

RJ: I was going to say it reminds me of the exhibition in Japan for the Mondo posters. Again, they're getting it already, so we're hoping over here we can maybe catch people up. But the Museum of Modern Art in Kyoto had the exhibition of all of our friends' work of old Mondo posters. And it was from all reports incredibly well attended, not just well attended. When I went over there, the security guard actually spoke to me. He's like, "Yeah, man, it was a lot of folks. I had to stand up. I couldn't sit down the entire time like I usually do." We're hoping to maybe bring that kind of recognition here where, yeah, as Ken says, it feels a little bit lacking. We're a little bit behind.

MF: And so you mentioned a gallery program and doing kind of a return to doing gallery shows in the way that-- similar to how Mondo used to do back in the day. I guess, do you plan to have a regular program where it's every month, every six weeks? Do you think it'll be something that has regular presence in your gallery portfolio throughout the year? Or what's the plan with the gallery shows?

KH: Yeah. So I would love to. And that's going to take a little bit of time, especially to start. Artists need months and months and months to build shows so it's a bit of a long runway until we're there. But something that is very important, both to Rob and I, especially given our histories at other companies and how many of our artists work with our friends elsewhere, is having a retail space. Having a brick-and-mortar space that can function as a gallery, but also can function as a platform for our friends as well. I would love it if you could walk into CODA in New York City one day and find t-shirts from another company who we love or find records from another company or from our friends that we love. Because at the end of the day, we all work with a lot of the same artists and in many cases, we work on the same properties, but we're all doing cool things. And I think that we all want to-- we all do want to support each other. If an artist that Rob and I work with at CODA does well and carries that over to another company and that company does well, it's all just sort of going to come back and we're all going to benefit. I would love to use CODA as a platform for all of our friends to be successful and to really benefit from having this place and this cornerstone in the community.

RJ: I got to say, once things got out for me, at least for VMP, I was really happy and relieved to have a lot of reach outs from, honestly, competitors of the past to say, "Hey, man, that sucks. How can we help? If you need a contact here, if you need any sort of assistance, please let us know." And it was really nice. Like Ken said, we're all kind of in this big pop culture ship together. So I think it's going to be really exciting to see. Hopefully, we can raise the tide, raise all the boats.

MF: Yeah. So like on that note, does that mean you might be collaborating in some way with your former bandmates, Rob, at Mondo, the Mutant guys?

RJ: Hopefully, yeah. We're talking about for Blue Velvet, for example, Spence is interested in carrying a version since, obviously, he is in love forever with Mr. Lynch and Mr. Ruth combined. So what a perfect way to kind of approach that. But yeah, in the future, hopefully, there'll be a lot more kind of like cross-collaborations.

KH: We're actually supposed to be heading your way, Michael, for a screening.

MF: Oh, is that right?

KH: In Austin. Unfortunately, there were some hiccups, but there is a Mutant-CODA collab in the works and, I believe, penciled it on the schedule. So stay tuned, and hopefully, we've got some good news for everybody soon.

MF: Awesome. Very cool. So in addition to gallery, we talked a little bit about screening events that you have planned. Are there other types of-- I mean, you kind of hinted at San Diego Comic-Con. Are you planning to do a lot of the convention scene type activities as well?

KH: Yeah. So right now, I already have a San Diego Comic-Con booth and a New York Comic-Con booth and a Wonder-Con booth. And I've done C2E2, and I've done Designer-Con, and I have a beautiful gallery setup for our conventions. So to start, this year in July at San Diego Comic-Con, CODA will be there. CODA will be taking over about half of the Spoke Art booth so Spoke Art and CODA will be sharing our booth. But it's a good-sized booth, it's a double-sized 10 by 20, so it's going to look great, it's going to feel great. I assume that that's going to be the case for New York. And as time goes on, will we have individual booths, two booths? I don't know. We'll see. I would love to get there, and I think that we're just going to keep plugging away and keep making cool shit.

MF: Excellent.

RJ: Can't add to that. That's exactly it. Keep making cool shit. Hopefully, it's going to be our motto.

MF: That's a good segue. I think one of the last topics that I wanted to cover with you is, each of you, what are the upcoming releases or events that you're specifically most excited about? So take turns and I guess, Rob, what is an upcoming event/product release that you're just most stoked about?

RJ: Well, to carry on from Ken's mention of doing things a little bit differently, we have a project coming up with Tyler Stout for Ol' Dirty Bastard. Quite surprised. I was like, "Hey man, would you like to work on this? He's like, "My God, yes." He did his version of Return To The 36 Chambers, the dirty version cover and we're doing a few versions of that. You'll be seeing the first peak of that at SDCC. And there might be some other versions of that cover, some other variations are coming down the pipe afterwards. But I was happy to get a yes, but happier with the results. It looks really cool. And it's also something I don't think we ever would have done at Mondo. But it was a weird hybrid that occurred first at VMP, but it carries really well here with the whole concept of what we want to pursue with CODA.

MF: Awesome. What about you, Ken?

KH: Well, in a couple of weeks, we will be coming to Chicago for a film screening at the Music Box Theater with Rory Kurtz in attendance and with a poster for the Grand Budapest Hotel.

MF: Oh, nice.

KH: Officially approved. Really, really awesome and exciting. And I've seen the first roughs of the image, and it looks great. Rory knocked this one out of the park. Plus we've never done a screening in Chicago. I love that city, really excited to bring something to folks that way. And yeah, that's going to be sort of one of the first things that will be made public and that you'll see and hear. I'm pretty stoked.

MF: So is that the official big launch of CODA? Is that the first big event? You said it's a few weeks from now.

KH: I think that that will be our first in-person event. And then we'll follow up with San Diego Comic-Con the next month.

MF: Okay. Awesome. And so for people watching this or listening to it or reading it in whatever form you're consuming, where can people find you and CODA and all these great things that you got going on for the future?

KH: Yeah. Website is codacurates.com. Instagram is @codacurates, you can find us on social there. And then, of course, Rob and Jenni are at @AnimalRummy on Instagram, and I'm my own name. So we'll be launching in a couple of weeks and I'm really excited for this. Everyone that I know, everyone that I've ever known, has always just told me how brilliant Rob is and what a great guy he is to work with and work for. And in the last few months, as I've been sort of getting to know him better and working with him more, I've seen that. And I think that we're really bringing together two very interesting skill sets and degrees of experience and perspectives. And they're coming together, they're coalescing in this really beautiful way.

RJ: I was going to say, that's the main reason that it was so easy to form the partnership with Ken. I know a lot of artists that work with Ken that don't trust anybody. And they trust Ken. They've trusted Ken multiple times. And so the fact that they trusted him-- in fact, a good example would be Tyler Stout. That was shorthand for me to know "yeah, this is great". It's kind of like back in the day when Todd Slater was like, "Hey, there's this printer in Seattle named Steve at DL. You should maybe check him out." I'm like, "Really? Who does he print?" He goes, "He prints Emek." I'm like, "Oh, good enough for me. I'll send him my files tomorrow."

MF: So Todd was your connection to DL?

RJ: Oh, yeah. We were both printing with Krusty Kolor, and he got the Sonic Youth poster printed with Steve. And again, I asked him, who else does he print for? And when he told me Emek, I know how demanding Emek is. So I was like, "Well, shoot, if he's making Emek happy, then I will be ecstatic." So I immediately signed up. And Steve and I have been print buddies ever since. Steve, another guy I've never met in person. He told me we met each other at Flatstock Seattle, but apparently I was like a dick, or I wasn't acknowledging it. I was busy at the booth. But I don't remember it at all, but we've never really met formally. But yeah, but it doesn't matter. We've produced a lot of great results in our 20-year relationship.

MF: Yeah. Awesome. Well, on that note, thank you guys for doing this. I really appreciate it. It's great chatting with you and catching up.

RJ: Thank you.

KH: Thanks so much, Michael. Looking forward to sharing more with you soon.